Nick

Once saved, always saved. (Believe it or burn!)

Comments

[this is good]
Hi Nick. Just to let you know --- you ain't alone. I grew up in the "get outta line once and you're literally toast" camp. It wasn't until after i graduated college with a degree in theology that i went into the Reformed camp, and it has been blessed reassurance every since....

Thanks a lot. Could do with some blessed assurance, personally. I tend to spend too much time thinking to actually feel anything. Not good.

Am digging into your blog, BTW. Need a good stretch of free time to just settle in and read, but that just doesn't happen these days. Takes me bloody ages to think of comments on other people's blogs (I always assume I sound like an idiot and then work from there), and I'm too busy reading to be pithy (or coherent), but will try to leave some thoughtlets.

Can't believe you've read the Philokalia. Holy cats, that's commitment!

[this is good]

I grew up in a theological tradition where "once saved, always saved" was the standard. My best friend in high school attended a pentecostal church and he and I had very lively conversations. It wasn't until I was studying biblical interp in college that I was presented with a "real" arguement that perhaps we had oversimplified the doctrine (by boiling it down into 4 words). Paul, in various discussions, teaches that our salvation is something of a process which can be accellerated, retarded, blocked and even abandoned. But it is our heart that God is after, the flesh wars against us so that even Paul did things that he wished he didn't.

I've walked closely with folks on both sides of this debate. On the whole, I've seen more people who believed that they could lose their salvation fall away than people who believed their salvation was assured fall into unfettered sin.

Excellent points, Tim.

Paul, in various discussions, teaches that our salvation is something of a process which can be accellerated, retarded, blocked and even abandoned.

Definitely - it's a living thing, complex, not reducible to a formula. Neither the boiled down, simplified OSAS nor the boiled-down, simplified view of that church leader does justice to Paul's highly nuanced theology. I'm such a ratbag that I can only bear a gospel that's really lenient towards me, and if I stopped believing in that gospel, I would have to ditch the whole thing. Whether or not I can actually lose salvation - and I'm inclined to think that I can abandon it if I so choose - really isn't something I can deduce from the bible. (Catholics would say that this is why we need a pope!)

On the whole, I've seen more people who believed that they could lose their salvation fall away than people who believed their salvation was assured fall into unfettered sin.

I find that really interesting. And ironic. Instead of leading to antinomianism, belief in one's salvation guards against falling away.

Thanks for commenting, Tim (or should I say Gorilla Pants?) - very good food for thought.

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The wanton sinners who deliberately use their gospel liberty to get drunk and hold orgies have a different kind of sinfulness from those who live with a feeling of shame for their misdeeds, sometimes struggling against them, other times feeling wholly at their mercy, and who find themselves going miserably but compulsively to the orgies when they’ve told their spouse that they are just popping out to buy cat-food.

Growing up, we called it "once bathed, forever saved" - and I always wondered about the folks who did exactly as you describe (who we called "Sunday morning Christians", as that was the only time that they acted like Christians).

John

I love "once bathed, forever saved". Can't think of a good equivalent for people who baptise by sprinkling. Anyway, my problem is that I'm no good even on Sundays; my mind is all over the place, and is frequently in the gutter. But if God is a person and not a slot machine, then all of our godward gropes, even if restricted to sabbaths, are noticed and responded to, I imagine (or hope). Anyway, it's theological deep water.

[this is good]

Anyway, my problem is that I'm no good even on Sundays; my mind is all over the place, and is frequently in the gutter.

That your mind wanders merely proves that you have one [1]. That you feel bad about it proves that you are worthy of grace [2].

But if God is a person and not a slot machine, then all of our godward gropes, even if restricted to sabbaths, are noticed and responded to, I imagine (or hope). Anyway, it's theological deep water.

Which is the best kind. Simple and easily solved problems are for children and simpletons. Difficult ones are for those able to grow, because that's what they make us do.

John

[1] Unlike those who claim to never stray from the straight and narrow. Somehow, I doubt that they have the mental ability to spell the word 'stray", much less do it...

[2] Or so many theologians would have it.
[this is good]
Thank you, John - you are a veritable Barnabas.
[this is good]

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